An Atlanta Patient Advocate at the VA (a government employee) brutally beat a 73 year old veteran. He still has a job there.
If this is how they treat citizens now, think of how things will be if the citizens are disarmed. You will also note that it is a black man beating the shit out of a white man, but not one of the articles on this event make a single mention of race. If it were reversed, how would the stories read?
Bramo Fafnir · June 23, 2022 at 12:39 pm
Of course it is Black on White. The VA is a vast makework factory for Blacks. Some are ok. The West L.A. V.A. centre has the largest Workforce of any V.A. Facility in California, and it has to be about 40% Black by observation. Of Course this happened. It will happen more often in the future.
If you are a White, Hispanic or Asian Vet, here is your future.
Born To Kill Peace Sign · June 23, 2022 at 1:09 pm
Check any nursing home death camp and it is the same situation.
The Joker meme comes to mind about it’s not getting worse but more obvious.
External enemies don’t have to interrupt anything with all of these fifth columns going.
Regarding SCOTUS do you think the Kavanaugh situation may have influenced some of them in the NY permit case?
Mountain Rat · June 23, 2022 at 4:11 pm
I am taking care of two elders right now, one a decorated veteran. I will not allow them to be cared for by subhuman scum. Whatever it takes.
I also know that when I am their age, no one will be there to return the favor, but I will not submit myself to this shit either. I will go to the mountains and wait for death on my terms.
JR · June 23, 2022 at 6:16 pm
Maybe some Atlanta area vets should pay that piece of shit a little visit. Seems like he could use an attitude adjustment.
J. Smith · June 23, 2022 at 9:13 pm
Aesop · June 23, 2022 at 8:27 pm
Point of order:
The video was crystal clear.
The “attacker” was the elderly vet, who swung first.
Legally and morally, game over for any gripes at that point.
Yes, the response was egregiously disproportional, and yes, it was an elderly vet. If anyone wants to discuss the finer points, we can start there. Starting with finding any D.A. who’d prosecute, let alone any jury that would convict anyone who swung second.
So maybe a brighter vet wouldn’t have started a physical altercation with a larger and younger opponent in the first place. Clearly, there’s no accounting for IQ on his part.
But the video is clear on who started this, and thus at fault for it happening at all.
Try an experiment: Take a poke at a cop or a firefighter on scene, and tell the class how that turns out for you.
Bonus for before and after pictures.
Any assault whatsoever on a healthcare employee should be an automatic felony (and in some states, it is), with the same mandatory jailtime as domestic violence. Including against the janitors and registration clerks.
Nowhere is it in anyone’s job description at a hospital, or anywhere else (other than prizefighters, and they get to punch back too) to be a punching bag, not even when instigated by elderly people. Yet most healthcare employees report an annual tally of assaults and injuries that would shame a pro football offensive line. There hasn’t been one year in the last 25 I wasn’t assaulted and/or battered (there’s a difference) by patients, and most years it happens on multiple occasions. Grabbed, pushed, yanked on, swung at, hit, kicked, kneed, spit at, and spit on. BTDTGTTS, with gold and silver oak leaf clusters.
If that had been a patient at any ER, he would have been “assisted to the floor”, then bodily manhandled onto a gurney, restrained in hard restraints, and medicated into compliance with the basic rules of civility.
Starting with Kindergarten Rule #1: No hitting.
And it would have been a lot less gentle than what he received in that video (minus the head kick).
Or, better yet, arrested and turned over to the police, and restrained in the interim until they arrived, pretty much the exact same way.
Gramps crossed a line, and his slap wrote a check his old body couldn’t cash.
Don’t start nothing, won’t be nothing.
But if anyone wants to defend the assault of healthcare workers by patients – which is exactly what this was – under any circumstance, have at it. I’d like to hear that argument.
Divemedic · June 23, 2022 at 8:57 pm
You are barking up the wrong tree here. I have written more than a few papers on health care workers being assaulted.
But that doesn’t excuse stomping on an elderly person’s head or kicking them in the head once they are down.
Read more here.
Aesop · June 24, 2022 at 2:24 am
From the article:
“In the video, the two men appear to have a brief argument and Gaillard puts his finger up to Webb’s face. When Webb tries to push it away,”
Per the Georgia Criminal Code, § 16-5-23a1
“A person commits the offense of simple battery when he or she intentionally makes physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature with the person of another.”
Grampa can play the “I don’t remember” game all he wants, but he was a criminal in commission of simple battery at that point.
Unsurprisingly, Georgia, like many other states, offers special protection from battery to the elderly, pregnant women, anyone on public transit, police and corrections officers, spouses, cohabitants, siblings, and children of the accused, patients, amateur sports officials, and any employee of any school system. Including janitors and clerks.
But like many other states, doctors, nurses, techs, and ancillary staff subjected to such battery can go suck it. Color me shocked.
Georgia self-defense laws are about average.
According to § 16-3-21:
“A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force”
Cranky Grampa already blew past “imminent”, all the way to “actually battery in progress” at the moment he laid hands on the VA employee. Grampa forfeited any right to self-defense at that point, under explicit Georgia statute, as the initiator of the battery.
The case therefore hinges on a jury’s judgement of whether Gaillard’s force in response was “necessary”.
I already indicated that head kicking was going too far, IMHO, and if the D.A. wants to charge them both, Crankypants for starting the fight, and Gaillard for going too far to end it, I have no quarrel with that.
But they haven’t done that, because Crankypants came off the worse for wear. That’s quite simply bullsh*t: If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.
Crankypants is definitely a criminal.
Whether Gaillard is or not is now a question for a jury.
Complicating things for the easy-answers crowd is that both parties are black, so allegations of racial bias go right out the window.
Nonetheless, Gramps should absolutely have kept his hands to himself, and characterizing this as an “attack” by an employee on a patient, rather than an over-enthusiastic defense by the employee from the patient, is just the media churning up the mob, rather than reporting straight facts. Because where’s the fun in doing that?
Divemedic · June 24, 2022 at 6:40 am
It isn’t just that the worker went too far. He kicked the man in the head several times after he was down, to the point where the victim (yes, he is a victim) had a bleed in his brain. That is called using deadly force. This is no different than pulling out a gun and shooting him.
Over an old man slapping his hand away.
In order for force to be reasonable, it must be proportional and reasonably necessary. There was a point in this beating where it crossed the line from a legally defensible use of force in self defense to a savage beatdown because he got ‘dissed’ by an old man. When that point was will likely be for a jury to decide, but for me that line was crossed when he pressed the old man against the wall and began choking him.
As a street medic, I have had to subdue many a violent patient. This was overreach and he should, at a very minimum, lose any professional license for health care that he possesses. He clearly doesn’t have the temperament for dealing with patients.
Aesop · June 24, 2022 at 2:08 pm
No argument with any of that, as long as Webb is also prosecuted and charged with simple battery. Not holding my breath for any of that sort of common sense on the part of the Fulton County D.A.
IDK if “patient care advocate” is any sort of licensed position there (I doubt it), but a lot of the problem is that Gaillard probably hasn’t had any sort of training in dealing with assaultive persons, unlike every licensed staff member at the facility is probably required to have.
J. Smith · June 23, 2022 at 9:14 pm
I’m editing the content of this comment because I don’t want threats or personal attacks on here. It is fine to attack each other’s opinions, but please refrain from personal attacks and from threats of violence. As this entire comment consisted of a personal attack followed by a threat of violence, nothing remained after those were removed. Please consider this to be a warning. -Divemedic
Aesop · June 24, 2022 at 1:43 am
This comment was also removed for personal insults and threats. Please read comments above. Aesop, since this isn’t your first warning, I would normally take more action here, but I am giving you some leeway because you were provoked. Please, let’s be civil.- Divemedic
Aesop · June 24, 2022 at 2:09 pm
Friendly fire returned with a smile.
But thanks for circumspect and appropriate moderation.
Mike_C · June 23, 2022 at 10:05 pm
So you are sure that the beginning of that 30-sec clip captured the entire encounter? Absolutely no doubt in your certain knowledge that the Black dude didn’t do something physical to the white guy first, before the start of the clip?
And you’re also certain that the old guy didn’t have, say, some cognitive problem (such as a frontal lobe issue, or dementia) that resulted in him having diminished responsibility?
I’ve had goofy old coots, in the VA as it happens, take a swing at me. Had them restrained, for their own safety and that of the staff. I sure as fuck didn’t stomp on their heads or kick them in the noggin. That response was wildly disproportionate. The sort of thing some people would call T*B. Not that I’d call it that. I call it stereotypical behavior from a likely stupid person with minimal impulse control and effectively zero time preference. Low-order primates like that have no business working in hospitals for sure. And I’d argue zero place in society at large, but that’s just my opinion.
Aesop · June 24, 2022 at 1:39 am
As I said from the outset, the head kick was where the line got clearly crossed, but even then it was in response, not an “attack”.
If you’re going to postulate a prior start, bring forth the evidence. If we’re going to assume, let’s start from common sense: if there was video obtained under FOIA that bolstered the bassackwards “staff member attacks vet” byline, they would have posted it. Ergo there isn’t any. Media is waving the bloody shirt here. But the video was unequivocal: Han shot first, and Cranky Grampa swung first.
No one can argue either way from ignorance of what happened – or didn’t – beforehand.
I’d love to hear the missing audio, as it might bolster either side’s case. But common law for about 500 years’ time is that whoever swings first – and when last I looked, there was no age exception – in any verbal altercation gets the criminal charges, in fifty states and seven territories.
If Crankypants’ lawyer wants to plead mental incapacity, he’s free to do that at trial, whether criminal or civil. But as far as excusing his behavior any other way, he hasn’t got a leg to stand on. Pretty much like in the real life incident.
That’s the breaks.
Mike_C · June 24, 2022 at 9:18 am
I didn’t postulate a prior start. You seem to have assumed there was no prior start. I’m saying you (and I) don’t know either way.
And “Media waving the bloody shirt”? Gimme a break. If there is any ambiguity, the newsmedia always side with Black over white (case in point — note capitalizations per the AP style guide); always with sexual deviancy over normal people; always with “victims” over normal people minding their own business. (It’s almost always; I’m sure you can find a counterexample. That was a rhetorical device.)
There was no ambiguity here. Galliard was out of line kicking and headstomping the old guy, and for that he ought to be fired and prosecuted. This wasn’t some bar fight between two drunk assholes. Galliard was acting in his official job capacity and he should have stopped once the “threat” was neutralized. Putting the old fart on the ground should have been the end of it. Fuck Galliard and his shitty impulse control. Kicking a person in the head, especially an old one, could result in life-altering debilitating injury or death. I dont’ care if Galliard was angry, or what the old fart might have called him. As a health professional, you Just Don’t Do Shit Like That.
I know you’ve dealt with worse, but I’ve had a few patients that I was tempted to waste (and the world would have been a better place without them). But I didn’t because: 1) it’s unethical and would violate my personal and professional codes, 2) it’s illegal, 3) I’m not destroying my own life because some wannabe neo-Nazi punk full of cocaine and half a bottle of cheap whisky took a swing at me (unsuccessfully), and then threatened to kill me and afterwards go to my house and burn my family to death.
PS for the nonmedical people reading this, #3 is not a made-up example. Dude had “Hitler” tattooed on his neck but the “i” was dotted with a swastika . (Like little girls dot their i’s with little hearts. Hahaha!). Also he was like 5’5″, soft with a little pot belly, and balding at age 23. Some ubermensch. Real Nazis would have been ashamed. Offing that little fuck would have been a mercy kill.
Aesop · June 24, 2022 at 2:31 pm
1) They’re both black, from what I’ve been able to ascertain. Which would happily take the race card off the table all around. One small step for common sense.
2) “Patient care advocate” isn’t likely a licensed position.
3) As I noted with DM above, I doubt Gaillard has ever had to take any mandatory “Dealing With Assaultive Individuals” type of training, unlike probably every licensed staff member there. Which is contributory negligence by the VA.
That would be government inertia FTW.
4) I have no problem calling Gaillard for the over-reaction. Now let’s see the D.A. prosecute Grampa, the instigator and initiator, who forfeited victim status per Georgia statute the moment he became a criminal in commission of the original crime. (Sh’yeah. As if.)
5) I suspect that’s going to lead the defense for Gaillard to wipe the floor with Grampa a second time. This time, if it happens, it will be legal, and once again, he’ll have it coming. Crotch kick? Yes. Just no gratuitous head kicks the second time.
6. As Miguel pointed out many times at GFZ, if Gaillard had simply punched Grampa, even once, (a not unreasonable response in the circumstances) even that could have turned into unintentional deadly force. Expecting untrained amateurs to be cool and reasonable amidst any assault is unreasonable. Which leads back to Grampa heeding the sage advice of Detective Baretta, and Sammy Davis Jr.: “Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.”
If I were Judge Solomon, and everyone was willing to be reasonable, I’d suspend sentences all around provided Grampa went to anger management classes for six months in lieu of six months in the county lock-up for assault, and a misdemeanor conviction, and VA employee was suspended without pay until he’d completed a psychological evaluation, and successfully completed a course in “Management Of Assaultive Behavior”, or the equivalent, and paid any co-pay for Grampa’s head injury out of his own pocket.
And if someone punched the media jerk (who blew this up and lied about what actually happened) right in the dick, hard, I’d consider that a hat trick of distributive justice.
Joel · June 26, 2022 at 1:18 pm
So, being one that works for the VA health care side I can tell you what the advocate’s job is. Generally speaking they are who Veterans can turn to if they have issues of whatever sort and are not easily or quickly addressed by the service line they may have an issue with. The Advocate is there to try to work communication avenues, see what went wrong (if anything. There’s a large amount of No Joe Snuffy, you can’t have another hand full of narcotics, or no that item you desire is not medically nessicary) However there are some options we can present you to take control of your own health care. And yes sometimes it is about seeing where a Veteran was wronged either by oversight, or possibly even malice.
To Aesops comment, no these folks do not have a medical lisence unless they bring it with them from another profession.
Especally a large facility like that has their own VA police department which are supposed to be called when someone becomes overly combatitive and the position shown here is supposed to also be trained in various deescelation methods.
That’s what I can add to the situation presented for my knowlage base, there’s been a lot of opinion bantered about with possible situations already so I don’t feel the need to go in to it other than that position is increadibly tough to be in, both to try to assist Veterans that may not be getting the optimal care they deserve, OR dealing with very aggressive and abusive Veterans who just want to get what they want by hook or crook when it is not something they either need in the first place or in may cases is fradulent.
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