Dave Ramsey famously forces all of his employees to sign a morality clause as a part of their employment agreement. One unmarried woman who works for him applied for maternity leave. Since her pregnancy is proof that she engaged in sex before marriage, he fired her. She is suing.
I hope she wins.
Not because I am in favor of extramarital sex, nor am I opposed to Christians. The reason is that I do not feel like an employer should have the ability to fire you for what you do while you are ‘off the clock’ unless it has a direct effect on the business. That goes for all businesses. That means the cop who donates to the Rittenhouse defense fund is safe to speak his mind while not at work. That means a person can go to a Trump rally without being fired. As long as it is on the employee’s own time, the boss should have no say in that employee’s business.
Unless it has a DIRECT tie to the business.
For example, an employee of McDonald’s who stands outside of a store in a company uniform and complains about the food being unhealthy. The employer can discipline him, because it is directly in opposition to the business.
I have spent most of my life working for employers who claim that their employees must he held to a higher standard, whatever that means. What it means in practice is that the employees can be fired for things that are none of the employer’s business. Imagine a workplace firing you for being an NRA member, or for being a Republican and you understand why I am opposed to this.
An employee who has sex outside of work with another employee, especially if there is a subordinate relationship can be fired, but other than that, it should not be any of the employer’s business.
D · April 28, 2021 at 5:12 pm
By that logic, employees can’t just quit for any random reason.
And while conception may have occurred off the clock, it will certainly affect being “on the clock”. Gonna have to pay that government-mandated maternity leave and make sure the position is filled by a temp employee that you’ll have to fire when she comes back. The temp may perform worse impacting business. Even worse, they may perform better, but you still have to keep a spot open for the employee that performed worse.
Employers should be able to terminate people for any reason.
Employees should be able to leave for any reason.
Unless there’s a contract.
Which in this case, there is. And she violated it.
Divemedic · April 28, 2021 at 5:55 pm
“I don’t want to pay for maternity leave” is not a lawful reason to fire someone. Trying to use “maternity leave is expensive” as a reason to fire someone means breaking out the checkbook in court.
My ex wife had an employer who forced her to work overtime in exchange for comp time. Then when it came time for her to collect on that paid time off, instead of giving it to her, they fired her. She sued and won a pile of money.
If my employer wants to tell me what to do 24/7, then my employer can pay me 24/7.
Bear Claw · April 28, 2021 at 11:43 pm
Sorry no one is forced to do anything in this country.
Divemedic · April 29, 2021 at 4:58 am
That is so patently false as to be laughable. What happens if you choose to sell cocaine for a living. Can you choose not to go to prison?
Bear Claw · May 2, 2021 at 9:06 am
Chose is not being forced. There are consequences for all of our choices, some good some bad.
Divemedic · May 2, 2021 at 10:41 am
So if I hold a gun to a woman’s head while I am asking her to choose between having sex with me and getting shot, she is free to choose?
You DO realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? It is possible to create a consequence to a “choice” and to ensure that there is no “choice” at all.
ruralcounsel · May 5, 2021 at 5:46 pm
So an employer could say they won’t hire married people? Black people? White people? People who drink? Smoke? Gamble? Belonging to the wrong political party? Drive red cars?
Employment-at-will is already a thing in a lot of states, but there are public policy exceptions, and one of them involves discrimination. It’s a basic concept but it has limits, because a lot of employers are sociopaths.
If there’s a contract, I’ll bet it doesn’t say a thing about any morality details, but is a vague wishy-washy boilerplate paragraph. It’s pretty damn hard to list everything that could be a violation. So odds are she didn’t violate anything.
Bear Claw · April 28, 2021 at 11:41 pm
I recently heard a man named Steve Friskup speak live on the advice of a friend. Steve is on Facebook I am not. His message is powerful and what he said is correct and if the people would rise up with his beliefs we could very easily undue all that we complain about but sit on our arses and do nothing about. We are a Judeo Christian founded nation as is Dave Ramsey’s business and this employe voluntarily signed the agreement and self inflicted her demise. Perhaps she has accepted the consequences I hope so. If not that is the problem as usual, its always somebody else’s fault and that is the problem with our nation on a large scale.
D · May 3, 2021 at 11:03 am
None of your examples really break my argument.
> My ex wife had an employer who forced her to work overtime
“forced”? Huh…did the employer hold a gun to her head?
> Then when it came time for her to collect on that paid time off, instead of giving it to her, they fired her. She sued and won a pile of money.
Seems like the employer violated a verbal or written contract where she was “forced” to work overtime in exchange for comp time, and then the employer didn’t pay the comp time.
> “I don’t want to pay for maternity leave” is not a lawful reason to fire someone. Trying to use “maternity leave is expensive” as a reason to fire someone means breaking out the checkbook in court.
Obviously government intervention is the problem. I know several of the employers around here will simply say “It’s not working out” and terminate the employee. While I think it’s a bit sleazy, you shouldn’t need a Government Approved Reason ™ to hire or fire employees. We don’t live in a socialist utopia.
AC47spooky · May 3, 2021 at 11:15 am
I can understand both sides of the issue. She knew she was violating something her employer specifically mandated under the employment agreement. However, if she was a great employee otherwise, perhaps the employer could have forgiven. Forgiveness is one thing Jesus Christ Himself has done for all of humanity.
In Florida, we are a “right to work” state. You work for the employer and usually all is well. But if the employer decides to fire you, that can be done for any reason, or no reason at all. And generally you can do nothing about it. Many employers, having decided to rid themselves of one or even 20 workers they “don’t care to keep any longer” either make the people miserable, or “restructure” the business with a “reduction in force.”
It happened to me and I had been there for a long time with an excellent record. But I’m better off and, I venture to say, so is the woman who was fired by Ramsey.
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