To those who think that citizens can’t beat a modern army with only an AR15, I have a two word answer:

Simo Häyhä

He was a farmer who only served the Finnish Army for six months, and saw combat for less than 100 days. Even though he was in for less 4 months, he managed to kill 505 Soviet troops with a Finnish copy of a Mosin, and another 200 with his Suomi submachine gun. This means that he killed more than 7 Russian troops every single day.

The most incredible part is that he did this with iron sights instead of a scope. The Russians feared him so much that they gave him the name “The White Death”. He was shot in the face with an explosive bullet but survived until 2002 before he died at the age of 96.

Keep in mind that this was Finland, who only had a population of 3.5 million at the time.

Now imagine that the US has well over 100 million gun owners. If even one in a hundred thousand gun owners can shoot like this, the entire National Guard would be dead within 60 days.

Categories: The Collapse


Anonymous · December 24, 2023 at 6:58 am

Fear the hunter.

Skyler the Weird · December 24, 2023 at 8:12 am

I think I saw a Finnish movie clip featuring him not too long ago on You tube. Ill see if I can track it down.

Elrod · December 24, 2023 at 8:15 am

“If even one in a hundred thousand gun owners can shoot like this, the entire National Guard would be dead within 60 days. “


Four weeks, tops. And that’s while dealing with Other Demands, like, uh, “biological political infrastructure” because it isn’t 1:100K, it’s <1:10K, in some places <1:100 and a few where it's very close to 1:1. Say "400 meter steel" or "40-round 3-Gun stage" in a group and see who immediately starts smiling.

The skills are quite a bit more plentiful than some realize, the issue will be "the will to use those skills" coupled with the "knowledge and ability to stay alive and fully functional to use those skills over time." Simo Häyhä had a national support system supplying him with food, ammunition, rest time, encouragement, etc. Alan and Alice American will be on their own and will have untrustworthy spectators and neighbors to deal with (which, I predict, will very drastically affect the real estate market….).

It'll be a shit storm no matter where you sit on the spectrum. Like they say, "no easy days."

Jay Dee · December 24, 2023 at 8:46 am

The problem is that neither side is thinking how an insurrection would proceed.

A $5 Harbor Freight hacksaw can kill a lot more people than any AR-15 by destroying infrastructure. No power. No HVAC. No tv. No internet. Cell phones don’t work because there’s no power to charge them. No refrigerators to store food. All the things a modern city needs to function stops.

Worse yet, Biden and company have been shipping arms overseas. Arms that they need if they plan to fight any real insurrection. They cannot replace them in any timely fashion. Most are built in outstate factories which depend on numerous vendors for parts & services. We cannot replace the Stinger missiles we shipped to the Ukraine. We cannot produce enough dumb 155mm rounds to resupply what we gave to the Ukraine. Just when our soi-disant elites need a military to take over, the military has been gutted by their mismanagement. They’ve lost before a shot was even fired

Don’t get me wrong. It will be tough for everyone. We will lose a lot of people when Big Pharma shuts down. People will starve because the farm to table pipeline shuts down.

    Toastrider · December 24, 2023 at 9:23 am


    It’s why, with all due respect to DM here, I have to restrain a barrage of giggles when the military’s willingness to fire on civilians is brought up. Because it doesn’t matter. What do you think some of these ‘diverse’, ‘brave and stunning’ ‘soldiers’ are gonna do the first time they take return fire? Or for that matter, the first time they encounter sabotage, or an IED?

    The angle that worries me — and should worry the rest of us — is the massive influx of illegal aliens from various countries. The elites are already making moves to legitimize them somewhat with official positions of enforcement. The next leap to janissaries and Hessians isn’t that far away.

      TRX · December 24, 2023 at 12:30 pm

      Newguy: “They’re SHOOTING at us!”

      Sergeant: “It’s okay, son. They’re the enemy. It’s allowed.”

      Joe Blow · December 26, 2023 at 7:25 am

      Very true… Funny, you mention stuff like this to normies in the context of the border invasion and their eyes glaze over.
      I have found you can get them to admit “there seems to be a problem going on over there…” when you talk about all the video’s of people streaming across the border. I like to extrapolate with them and think out loud, see if they can follow along:
      Yeah, the government gives them a cell phone and EBT card, crazy. Hey, whaddyathink will happen if those cards stop working one day? You think they’ll just go back home? No? What do you think they’ll do when they have no free food to eat? Crawl into the corner and die quietly?

      I’ve accepted the fact that we will soon become a 3rd world shithole with dead bodies littering the streets being eaten by packs of feral dogs. How long we stay that way, depends on a few things.

Michael · December 24, 2023 at 10:26 am

I suspect the illegal immigrant invasion of military aged males is the greater threat than the military.

The feckless leadership of our former Republic has begotten a weak “diverse” army BUT they are AFRAID of the Loyalties of those military. Mostly the legacy military.

Thus, while the military is *still* obeying what they think of as legal orders the Powers that Be will ORDER them to barracks until the situation is better understood.

That gives the illegals time to be activated and in action eliminating enemies of “Our Democracy” (AKA Dictatorship of Orville’s 1984 THE PARTY).

A LOT of that shooting will be done in ambush short range attacks. Snipers NEED target acquisition to be effective. They will not be wearing uniforms and thus LOOK like many of us armed patriots.

Friendly fire trouble is a feature of the PLAN not a bug.

Aesop · December 24, 2023 at 10:40 am

If only 1 gun owner in 100 shoots at TPTB, the entire military would be dead in 15 minutes.
Three volleys; four at most. The next two rounds solve the problems of the masters that would send them in the first place. It would be known as the Monday Morning War, because it would be largely over before lunchtime.
Mopping up the remnants wouldn’t take much longer than a week.

That (besides vamping for photo ops) is what scares them the most about January 6th.
If those folks had been serious and armed, we would have had regime change before brunch.

It really was a wake-up call to the other side about how precarious their position is.
This is why Tuco’s advice is always relevant:
When you have to shoot, shoot; don’t talk.

    Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 10:46 am

    Thinking that 1% of gun owners will be shooting is a bit far fetched, at least at first. IMHO even 1 in 10,000 is optimistic, and there will be no C3. That is both a weakness and a strength of militias. With no coordination, there are no ring leaders to round up or command structure to target, but they also can’t work cooperatively.
    The same is true of a military that refuses orders to fire in Americans. There will be isolated units that refuse to do so, but the vast majority will. The ones who refuse are much more likely to be NG units because they are locals, and Special Forces, because they encourage individual thought.

      EN2 SS · December 24, 2023 at 7:44 pm

      Off the top of my punkin’ head, how much C3 did McVey have? Or the Unibomber? Or the rag heads of 9/11? There are soooo many ways to make things go boom, a lot of them in your kitchen.

        Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 7:56 pm

        Please tell me that you aren’t referring to C3 as being an explosive.

      Itziri · December 24, 2023 at 10:06 pm

      Not much need for coordination, not at first anyway. Plenty of feds and fed collaborators local to all of us. I’m sure we like minded individuals have been paying attention as we drive around town, noting which houses fly the rainbow flag, and those that have those insipid “we believe” signs in the yard.

      Like Mike Vanderboegh used to say, Clinton rules of engagement are in effect.

      It doesn’t really matter how many bodies the Feds have, really. Almost all of them will get orders to guard party officials after about the first week, after far too many county Democrat party chairmen, college DEI administrators, and gender studies professors and the like are suddenly unable to leave their homes for fear of their lives.

SoCoRuss · December 24, 2023 at 1:45 pm

Read some articles on him and saw a documentary long time ago.. A amazing and simple man. But the issue with lots of the ways wars were once fought is modern game changers. The Uke War has drastically changed with the prevalence of drones. Drones are the game changing equivalent of the invention of the machine gun and adding of tanks to WW1. You can defend against drones in cities somewhat but in open country or woods, that’s a whole different animal. NV, thermal makes you stand out like a flashlight. The military is spending real big money on camo and masking techniques for vehicles and soldiers to defend against that new threat. Multiple vids on them out them. The realization of trying to actually hide a vehicle is getting harder so the tech is centering on masking what you are, these techs make you look like a F150 or a tractor versus a M1 tank and so on. You will have to consider the drone threat to entry and exfil for ANY ops done because by the time you may notice them , they already see you and you are probably dead as you can watch on any Iraq drone strike vids out there.

    Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 2:01 pm

    Funny you should say that. There is a post coming on drones.

Anonymous · December 24, 2023 at 3:28 pm

The Republican voters in the fighters’ families are NPCs on political subjects, and desperately want communist protectionism like borders. They will snitch out their fighter relatives, in paniced fear they will actually defeat the government. Most of the middle class votes driven by envy and the instinctual need to be not at the bottom of the pecking order. They most definitely do not want liberty and justice for all.

    Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 4:11 pm

    I don’t view borders as being communist or protectionist. I view borders as being a level playing field.

      Anonymous · December 24, 2023 at 6:32 pm

      Thought experiment: here’s a globe, you can draw a border anywhere you want. Let me suppose you want to identify clumps of similar genetics and worldview and call them nations. How do you decide where to draw a border? Now you have the gerrymandering problem. You have an unresolvable tension between isolating similar worldviews, and cosmopolitizing compact regions. If you succeed at temporarily making a border, perhaps because your border is reinforced by a geographic feature like an ocean, in time you produce the Aztec problem: population isolated from economic competition via trade is no longer militarily competitive.

      I just don’t see borders as a win over a long term as short as 50 years. Japan did better after it started trading cameras and electronics to the US. Likewise for the benefits of trade to Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan, China. All the richest, aka highest standard of living, places were trading hubs, like Venice. I agree that it’s crappy to export pollution to China, but over the long term of 50 years I see that as self-adjusting.

        Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 7:27 pm

        Borders are there because you defend them. The military is there to protect your economy and ensure a stable economic environment. To do that, you need borders.

        Pete · December 24, 2023 at 9:23 pm

        You seem to assume that “border” means “absolutely nothing ever crosses this line in either direction.” You can trade with other nations without allowing the people of those nations to come and colonize your lands.

        Aesop · December 25, 2023 at 7:29 am

        Japan did better before they were forced to open their doors to gaijin.
        The didn’t start trading cameras and electronics until after they’d been firebombed into starvation, and nuked twice.

        And that exact trade with Japan destroyed entire sectors of the American economy, which benefited no one in America except the 0.5% at the top.

        Countries cease to exist without borders.
        If you’re against a border, you’re against having a country where you belong.

        We’re all about to see what that looks like, close-up.
        [Hint: You’ll neither get what you like, nor like what you’ll get.]
        But you’re going to get an amazing understanding of why “May you live in interesting times” is a curse, not a blessing.

          Anonymous · December 25, 2023 at 5:32 pm

          Japan’s closed borders temporarily protected them from economic competition. Lacking economic competition, they became economically uncompetitive. Military logistics are produced by heavy industry. Having become economically uncompetitive, they lost the next military competition, a war. Being firebombed into starvation and nuked twice is not “doing better”. Which do you want to plan to lose? Your country’s uncompetitive industries stop having their products bought and those workers lose their jobs, or the whole country loses the next war?

            Pete · December 26, 2023 at 12:04 am

            You’re picking very bad examples, to the point that you almost have to be trolling because you can’t be THIS fucking stupid.

            Japan lost WWII because they were a small island nation that picked a fight with the largest, strongest nation in the world, with an industrial production capacity that dwarfed their own, while ALSO stretching themselves thin by invading and occupying China, parts of Mongolia, the Phillipines, French Indochina, the Dutch East Indies, Thailand, Borneo, British Malaya and Hong Kong!

            The Japanese knew all this, but they looked at the mismatch of forces and decided that their superior fighting spirit of Bushido would give them victory. Oops.

            And once again because you didn’t seem to get it last time: Having a border does not mean you become North Korea. You can still trade with other nations. Defending your border means other tribes can’t come in and conquer your lands (as is happening to the USA right now).

Anonymous · December 24, 2023 at 3:42 pm

In Switzerland you have to reside there for twenty years before you can apply for citizenship. Republican voters refuse to admit this policy choice exists, because their actual goal with immigration law is to manufacture an underclass which they can lord over.

Miles · December 24, 2023 at 4:09 pm

Fight the military? Why? One man has the power to order the entire military establishment to stand down, and all it takes is getting the right man in that place.
It’s a very simple, but not easy thing to do.

A point the late Mike Vanderboegh made several years ago about asymmetry:

“Direct military operations” are precisely what the 4GW insurgent seeks to avoid. His target is the mind and the will of the political leadership of his enemy — to be specific, the few inches between their ears which are filled with brains to be influenced or, if not, popped like a grape with an unanswerable rifle shot from distance as an example to the others.”

    Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 4:12 pm

    So what do you suggest? Voting?

      Miles · December 24, 2023 at 5:10 pm

      Voting? Possibly “from rooftops”. I just consider Aesop’s and Larry Correia’s version asymmetry to be needlessly expensive when there’s an alternative.

        Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 5:13 pm

        So how do you propose putting a new head guy in that doesn’t involve voting?

          Miles · December 24, 2023 at 5:32 pm

          Not trying to appear to be facetious, DM, but you did read that last paragraph of Vanderboegh’s, right?

          Not my idea, just a recognition that there’s more than one way to TCOB and while historically the acts weren’t, the results have always been accepted.

            Divemedic · December 24, 2023 at 7:24 pm

            Do you think that Biden is the leader? Would shooting him change anything?

            The worst think that could happen is for Biden to be shot. That would be all of the excuse needed to go after gun owners full bore.

              Miles · December 25, 2023 at 9:10 am

              Biden leading? Pfft. We all know he’s a puppet. But that puppet does have powers that no one else can exercise on their own without at least the charade that it came from POTUS.

              The idea – if that point were ever to be reached – is to go down the line of succession as provided by law and the amended Constitution until you get where you want to go.

              Like I said, simple?, yes, easy?, no.

        Aesop · December 25, 2023 at 7:52 am

        I consider it unnecessary because of its inevitability if ever tried.

        Even the brighter lights on The Other Side realize this.
        They’re tiptoeing around scrupulously to avoid such an event, with all their might.
        And it’s getting harder for them to advance their cause without irretrievably pissing off their own base, or triggering that exact explosion. How sad for them.

        As for them “coming after gun owners”, that would shorten the war immensely.
        Such an approach would be tantamount to telling all gun owners in the nation “Open season on police, feds, and government officials from POTUS to dog catcher, no curfew on hunting, and screw the bag limit! You’ve got nothing to lose, and after the first one you shoot, all the rest are free!

        There would be Simo Hayha’s from 100,000 towns who’d almost single-handedly eliminate the opposition in their counties, and many, many others who’d start thinning the electoral rolls until it was about 99:1 pretty much coast to coast.

        Nothing would electrify and unite the current herd of cats like trying to undo the 2d Amendment wholesale.

        Which is why any such move as that would be like pissing on the third rail of the subway, and why it’s about as likely as Hell freezing over.

        Tell me again, anyone…what, exactly, were the British looking for in Lexington and Concord…?

        It is to laugh.
        If someone is ever stupid enough to try it, at least 100M people’s consciences will be absolutely clear, beyond further argument.

        And after that, Baby Sister, it’ll be time to get down to the rat killin’.

        As for the “one man” theory?
        Any government strong enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have.

        I want every man jack of them to tremble in fear at raising the focused ire of The People.
        They haven’t gotten to that point yet, but they’re running at that wall flat out.
        So be it.

          Miles · December 25, 2023 at 8:44 am

          Well, Aesop, that ‘one man’ is CinC, and I think it would be very difficult for the military establishment to disregard an open, published and publicized order to remain in garrison.
          I don’t see many occifers having the ability to convince their commands that a direct order from the CinC to basically “butt out” would be an ‘illegal order’ that didn’t have to be obeyed.

          In fact, unless directly attacked and defending themselves, I think the vast over whelming majority of the military would readily take to that order like a duck to water just to stay out of the festivities.

          But that’s just me

            Aesop · December 26, 2023 at 9:47 am

            Google Mattis before and after he left office as SecDef, and the Joint Chiefs, circa 2020.
            Get back to us with what you find about their baseline attitudes about who they answer to.

            This is not the military we had 40-50 years ago.
            It’s been “fundamentally transformed”. I.e. the constitutionalists and free thinkers were weeded out in favor of knee-jerk pro-democommunist “yes men”, from 2009 onwards.
            The entire general officer corps (admirals too) is basically one giant tub of shit, in every branch. The field grades aren’t much better. Exceptions to the rule could be counted on your fingers.

            Exactly as intended.

            Suggest you re-think what “the military is gonna do” based on ground realities now, not historical behavior from the Golden Age.

            As every mutual fund will assure people:
            Past behavior is no guarantee of future performance.

            The reason I think the military will sit a civil war out is naked self-preservational interest. Because they don’t want to be used for target practice in an unwinnable war, which is what their odds look like in an insurgency that would outnumber them 20-30:1 at the kickoff, and gradually become 100-200:1 within days, with every bullet that strikes home. It takes 6 months to make a basic soldier, but only 1 headshot to make an insurgent.
            Those are Little Big Horn numbers from the get-go.

            What any CinC wants will be secondary, or more likely tertiary, to that fundamental consideration.

Dirty Dingus McGee · December 24, 2023 at 6:05 pm

When push comes to shove, and it IS coming, put your money on the folks who feel they have nothing left to lose. They will fight past the point of exhaustion where the “paid” soldier probably won’t. Especially when that paid soldier realizes that his family is under fire from another paid division.
Yes they, the paid soldier, will have a technological advantage. But as has been shown many times previous, a dedicated guerilla force can give them all they can handle. Also the supply lines they intend to disrupt work both ways. If the population cant get food and medicine, the military will also run short. Also, it’s a big country, they can’t blanket the entire thing. So what do they concentrate on? Cities? Farms and rural land? With the current state of the military, I doubt they could control more than 4 major cities at once, never mind millions of acres of farm land or rural areas.

One thing you CAN count on, the coming uprising will make the War of Northern Aggression seem like a church picnic.

    Joe Blow · December 26, 2023 at 7:16 am

    How do Blue Hive Cities operate without electricity?
    You think those grid-towers that run from the country into the cities will be safe?
    You know that’s only 1/2 inch steel, right? Like, I could pull one of the legs down in seconds with an F250 and some chains…
    Stay away from cities.

Simpleton · December 25, 2023 at 1:00 pm

This is not meant to be flippant, or anything, and a serious question for those who know more. What about drones with thermal tech, apache helicopters, cobra helicopters, sound cannons, direct energy weapons, and, all the other stuff, which, no doubt exists but is not known publically?

    Miles · December 25, 2023 at 6:55 pm

    Amateurs study Tactics, Professionals study Logistics.
    What does it take to keep all those things operable?

    EN2 SS · December 25, 2023 at 8:22 pm

    And how well did all that work in Afghanistan?

      Pete · December 26, 2023 at 12:08 am

      Our elites didn’t care about Afghanistan. To them, it was just another money-laundering operation and a payoff to the MIC donors like Raytheon. Once they had Ukraine up and running, they didn’t need A-stan anymore.

      If it comes down to fighting Americans, they will feel personally threatened and they will go absolute scorched earth.

        Aesop · December 26, 2023 at 10:00 am

        That sword cuts both ways, and a lot deeper on their side of the blade.
        They can’t even feed themselves next month if they go “scorched earth”, and they’ll be taking headshots to pilots and ground crew on the flightline by Day Two of trying it.

        By Day Three, their off-base relatives, children included, will be staked out in sight of the fenceline, and used as bargaining chips: hand over one rifle, get one hostage. Sideline one vehicle, get two. Deadline on aircraft, get one complete family back. Stall an hour, get somebody’s kid delivered one limb at a time.
        Make a move against anyone, watch them all lit on fire while you listen to the screams.

        This ain’t gonna be a Marquis Of Queensbury contest.

        And they know this. The troops will napalm the base HQ before they’ll fight under those conditions, doubly so knowing that afterwards, they’ll likely all be rounded up and hanged on the spot, and that any POWs will be summarily executed, in ways that would make Apaches puke. And a non-zero number of garrisons will flip sides. Some of them, after a brief, but kinetic, change of command.

        Which is why there isn’t going to be any “scorched earth”. They’re going to lock the gates, stack arms, and wait inside for a winner, and if they’re very lucky, they’ll be largely left alone, with the power left on and food allowed in, while that contest transpires outside.

      Simpleton · December 26, 2023 at 12:58 pm

      This is not meant to be flippant, or anything, and a serious question for those who know more. What about drones with thermal tech,
      apache helicopters, cobra helicopters, sound cannons, direct energy weapons, and, all the other stuff, which, no doubt exists but is
      not known publically?
      Once again these are meant, as serious questions. I dont know so, hopefully someone smarter or more knowledgable can shed light.

      What if they already have in orbit the weapons this guy suggests was used in Hawai fires, scroll down to `Lahaina and the DEWs’

      Too, if the goal is to de populate does anyone care about pissing off their own or any other population if, the gloves are off.

      And can Americans be compared to Afghans, I mean doesnt just cutting off, Netflicks and Tiktok and shipments of Zanax from China make zombies of half the population. How many Americans have had their wedding blown up by some drone?

      Not the best at articulating stuff but, serious questions.

        Divemedic · December 26, 2023 at 1:14 pm

        What if…
        Seriously, I don’t think that there are orbiting space lasers that are burning down random cities in Maui. Even so-
        Using an orbiting superweapon to burn down an entire city? Even if such a weapon exists, it won’t be used for the same reason that nukes, carpet bombing, or randomly firing missiles into neighborhoods won’t get used. If you piss off your own population, you strengthen the opposing forces. Not a good idea in a civil war, especially if you are already losing. Let’s say that there are a million pissed off gun owners who are actively fighting or supporting the fighters that are opposing you.
        You nuke/space laser/carpet bomb a city. You may have killed half a million noncombatants to kill thousand or two of the opposition. Only now, another half a million who are pissed that you nuked the town where their mom lives cross over, and now there are a million and a half pissed off opponents.
        I also suspect that your “serious questions” are not actually what you claim them to be.

    Divemedic · December 26, 2023 at 5:45 am

    I already alluded to that in another post. You can read it here, but the point is that all of those advanced weapons systems need logistical support- fuel, ammo, electronic parts, engine lube oil. The US military practically invented the military art of logistics, and they are very good at it. However, in modern times our industrial and logistical base has always had the advantage of being separated from the enemy by an ocean. That wouldn’t be the case in a civil war. The military people operating, arming, and maintaining the drones? They have families. So do the factory workers making those items. All of them would be fair game in such a scenario.

    Attack helicopters and drones with thermal equipment are devastating on a battlefield. But what if the enemy is comingled with your own civilian population? What if there IS no clear cut battlefield? How do you engage the ‘enemy’ when the enemy is your own citizens without pissing off those who aren’t yet part of the opposition? How do you guard your own supply chain? Power lines? Where do your troops go for R&R? Imagine some intel officer going home on leave and simply disappearing. Did he defect? Was he abducted?

    It won’t be the walk in the park that either side envisions. It will be a bloodbath. On both sides.

      Simpleton · December 26, 2023 at 1:00 pm

      This is not meant to be flippant, or anything, and a serious question for those who know more. What about drones with thermal tech,
      apache helicopters, cobra helicopters, sound cannons, direct energy weapons, and, all the other stuff, which, no doubt exists but is
      not known publically?
      Once again these are meant, as serious questions. I dont know so, hopefully someone smarter or more knowledgable can shed light.

      What if they already have in orbit the weapons this guy suggests was used in Hawai fires, scroll down to `Lahaina and the DEWs’

      Too, if the goal is to de populate does anyone care about pissing off their own or any other population if, the gloves are off.

      And can Americans be compared to Afghans, I mean doesnt just cutting off, Netflicks and Tiktok and shipments of Zanax from China make zombies of half the population. How many Americans have had their wedding blown up by some drone?

      Not the best at articulating stuff but, serious questions.

EN2 SS · December 25, 2023 at 8:24 pm

Just FYI, the fascists are now calling for gun control of the military.

Jester · December 26, 2023 at 10:26 pm

I can state that a lot of your National Guard (and perhaps reservist units) are not exactly falling on party lines but the smaller population zones or more rural units will likely not be doing anything at all to their own neighbors. More.. Urban units from those larger cities may be more inclined to do things to their neighbors at least early on. This however is based off past and the current knowlage I have of these units. I think in time depending on how long it would take to go to.. spicy times they might have in many cases weeded out those folks that follow lawful military orders and changed them out with people that don’t care or understand what they are doing.

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