Listen to the below video:
There are 9mm projectiles out there that are doing the same thing the forties are doing, but we can take the full power nines that are still less recoil impulse, high magazine capacity…
I own handguns in all of the major self defense calibers, including a few .40S&W and about three times as many 9 millimeters. I can’t tell you the last time I carried, or even shot, a forty caliber. When the FBI decided to use that caliber, they did so by neutering the 10mm. Why? Because female and limp wristed beta male Federal officers can’t handle the recoil of full power handguns.
I’m just going to say this: The 9mm has been a go to carry piece for me because of capacity and ease of concealment. If I were a Fed and could carry what I wanted without fear of printing or accidentally flashing, I would carry a full sized handgun.
He says it, but in a roundabout way:
I asked the guy at Hornady, why are we seeing huge gains in 9mm performance, but not in the other calibers? His answer was “you allowed us to increase velocity.”
This is a fundamentally misleading statement. The 10mm had plenty of velocity, but you forced the industry to slow it down and called it a .40. That’s why the “S&W” at the end is said to stand for “slow and weak.” The heart of the issue is at 12:45 (paraphrased just a bit):
10mm was fine for some agents, but you can’t hand that to a “Fleet” of 13,000 agents. The 180 grain bullet generates too much recoil, so let’s slow it down. Well, if you slow it down, you might as well go to a 40.
The other issue was the handgun chosen for the 10mm: The model 1076. He says half of the guns bought had to go back to the Performance center to be reworked because the gun didn’t function correctly. That’s a firearm, not a caliber problem. Still, recoil was and remains an issue.
All handguns are tradeoffs. Still, let’s be honest here- the FBI went back to the 9mm because women and soyboys are recoil sensitive, and the 1076 was just a crappy gun.
18 Comments
Jay Dee · January 15, 2026 at 6:33 am
One of the trade-offs is the recoil spring. The standard 1911 recoil spring requires 16 pounds to retract the slide. People with lesser hand and arm strength struggle with the 1911.
If hand and arm strength is not an issue, an 18 or 20 pound recoil spring decreases slide impact on the frame significantly and the gun feeds better.
If you really want to see what the 1911 can do, check out the .45 Super cartridge. Buffalo Ammunition sells the .45 Super cartridge that measures 1,131 fps with a 230 grain bullet. The 20 pound recoil spring also allows you to shoot the .45 Super cartridge. Unfortunately this is not a combination for the limp wristed.
TRX · January 16, 2026 at 2:48 am
The smaller the gun, the stronger the recoil spring has to be to keep from beating the gun up.
My wife wanted a subcompact, but she couldn’t manage the slide on anything she tried. She wound up buying a full size in 9mm because slide offered her a good grip (open palm vs. finger pinch) and the spring tension was very light.
Elrod · January 15, 2026 at 7:17 am
Reeves wimps out when he dodges the “what works best” question; I want to know what brand, bullet weight and load type works best. I’m guessing HST 147 +P or Gold Dot 147 +P, but that’s only a guess on my part, and I don’t care all that much because I’m still carrying a 10 (M&P 2.0 now that everyone has soiled themselves over my 320 X-TEN) and using Sig V-Crown 180s. But for those (very rare) times when I’m forced to carry something smaller, and for the Partner in Crime, that info would be useful.
C’mon, James, man up. Name names.
Joe Blow · January 16, 2026 at 6:12 am
LuckyGunner.com did a great review a number of years ago w/ gel-blocks and every kind of ammo they sell. They’ve updated it over time as well. Based on their results, I carry the 124 gr Gold Dot or the Federal Hydra-shock. Check out their website and see for yourself, some very interesting and exhaustive data to look through. Thanks LuckyGunner!
Elrod · January 16, 2026 at 3:25 pm
@Joe – I saw the Lucky Gunner testing, and a few others. Which is why I have both HST 124 +P and Gold Dot 124 +P on hand for the “little guns.” I would like to know what round was used in Minneapolis that penetrated a windshield and stayed on the aimed trajectory
Don Curton · January 15, 2026 at 8:43 am
As I said on another post about that video, picking a gun and a caliber for an organization is a lot different from you picking your own gun for your own use. Cops win gun fights not because they carry a slightly better weapon, but because 20 or more cops will show up and they’ll all mag-dump on a single suspect. Who cares about the effectiveness of the caliber if there’s dozens of bullet holes in the perp. And several hundred misses.
If I was picking a firearm for the FBI? I’d Barney Fife them – 38 special revolver, carried empty, with a single round of ammo in their shirt pocket.
Honk Honk · January 15, 2026 at 8:54 am
When will FIB enter the panty lingerie wars in honor of J. Edgar Hoover?
Still the most LOL gun shop visit ever was when some ruff n’ tuff creampuff came in bad mouthing 9mm and the off duty cop behind the counter said let me shoot you in the neck 15 times and you should last it.
Gerry · January 15, 2026 at 9:29 am
We had a dot gov agent that would shoot on our indoor range during the Clinton era. He was trained as an armor on the Smith and Wesson pistols they were issued. He had just returned from a second course at the S&W academy when he stopped in for some range time.
I asked him how it went. His reply, Smith and Wesson wished they never heard of the .40 cal. It’s been nothing but headaches since they introduced it. I guess they had lots of issues and were losing money on warranty claims
Texas Dan · January 15, 2026 at 9:59 am
You are bang on, so to speak. 9MM is a wonderful platform, but too many people think target practice ammo is the same as personal defense ammo in a life threatening situation with one. Bullet placement always matters, but since that can be random under stress, best to have am ammo load that will do the trick. And as you note, that’s rarely an issue with whatever comes out of a 45ACP.
My go to remains a 40SW, just because it’s a H&K work of art.
Unknownsailor · January 16, 2026 at 2:10 am
With modern HP ammunition there is little difference between all the pistol calibers. In 9mm carry a modern hollow point, like a Gold Dot or Federal HST, and your terminal performance down rage is with a few percent of even the mighty .45 ACP, except you get to carry more than twice the ammunition in a flush fit magazine. I carry Gold Dots myself, in whatever caliber I feel like carrying, whether it be 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45, and I am assured that if I do my part, my ammunition will do it’s part.
The big take away I got from that interview, that the Silvertip the FBI carried at the time sucked. Well, bullets have come a long way, since then, and now the justification for carrying something bigger no longer exists.
BTW, USSS agents carry a Glock in 9mm now, too. They have dropped their fancy Sigs in .357 Sig. This happened late in 2019.
georgiaboy61 · January 17, 2026 at 12:44 am
Re: “Well, bullets have come a long way, since then, and now the justification for carrying something bigger no longer exists. BTW, USSS agents carry a Glock in 9mm now, too. They have dropped their fancy Sigs in .357 Sig. This happened late in 2019.”
When an entire agency drops or adopts a cartridge for its sidearms, terminal performance is just one of the many factors which get considered, i.e., alongside availability, cost, reliability, etc.
While it is true that 9mm Parabellum has undergone performance gains in recent years, so have other cartridges and loads as well.
The real reason many of these organizations have pivoted back to 9mm and away from 40 S&W, 10mm, 45 Auto, 357 Sig, etc. may have less to do with its actual performance, and more to do with the fact that female personnel can qualify and train with it, as well as use it on duty, whereas many can not with the other more-potent loads.
357 Magnum from a 6″ barrel is still the king of the hill for one-shot stops, according to FBI data, at 98%. Yet, you don’t see many LE depts. using it these days…. and why? Because of “small stature cops,” a.k.a. women.
357 Sig is a significantly superior round to garden variety 9x19mm, and so is 10mm – so if performance was everything, what are they doing using 9mm?
Divemedic · January 17, 2026 at 7:05 am
Let me say that I LOVE mt 357Sig. It put a few trophies on the wall. The big complaint I have is ammo makers never loaded it to its potential, and there is no +P data for it.
The biggest drawback to 357Magnum for carry (especially cops) is that its a revolver.
TRX · January 16, 2026 at 2:43 am
“9mm” covers a broad swathe from “white box” to “defense” loads that are equivalent to .38 Super or low-end .357 Magnum. Standard NATO-spec 9mm runs 355 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. When someone says “9mm” nowadays, they usually mean some kind of +P+ non-standard load.
USGI spec .45 ACP (ball) runs 356 ft-lb. My .45 Super loads run about 600 ft-lb, but I don’t try to pass those off as “.45 ACP”.
Also note that at least half of commercially-loaded “10mm” ammunition has exactly the same ballistics as “.40 Auto.” I can’t imagine that anyone would buy a 10mm and deliberately shoot .40-class ammo through it. The ammo companies doing this might save a few cents a round in powder, but considering what they charge for the stuff, it seems silly.
The .40-class loadings are why 10mm pistols often have a reputation as being cranky. If they’re spring for full power 10mm, they have a tendency to misfeed with the wimpy ammo. If they’re sprung for wimpy, the felt recoil is nasty as the slide slams hard into its stop when shooting full power ammo.
Divemedic · January 16, 2026 at 5:11 am
I did an entire series of posts on the 10mm and .40S&W. I made the same points.
Joe Blow · January 16, 2026 at 6:40 am
The end-all be-all of the discussion is always rounds-on-target. If you miss, everything else discussed is just wasted oxygen.
So the debate about ‘which one is best for the three-letter-agency’ is very different than which one is best for an individual. If half the agents can’t rack a 1911 (for whatever reason), ballistics is moot. Sourcing a single firearm for 13,000 diverse agents is a challenge.
With that out of the way… High School Physics class to the rescue!
P = M x V
P = Momentum (or force in Newtons, aka impact force)
M = Mass (of the projectile)
V = Velocity (of said projectile)
Why do I share this? Mass and Velocity are EQUAL in the equation. If I make the bullet half as heavy, but fire it twice as fast, the terminal impact is the same. So some average numbers gaggle spit out at me:
40 S&W @ 180 grains moving 1100 fps gives us 198,000.
9mm @ 147 gr moving 1100 fps (+P load) gives us 161,700
9mm @ 124 gr moving 1250 fps (+P load) gives us 155,000
The 40 S&W will impact with approximately 15% more force than either of the 9mm rounds. But if the 40’s all miss the target, none of that really matters, does it?
Caliber arguments are stupid. If I can put a .22lr between your eyes w/ a derringer before you draw your Wilson Combat Elite Marine Ranger Seal Special Forces Performance Center Custom Drilled and Pinned NRA Rangemaster 1911 with hand-loaded ammo made by a ninja monk, what good did the (10-billion dollar) gun do you? You’re dead because I’m a better shot with a squirrel load.
It all comes down to the shooter and the gun. If I ran the FBI, I’d switch to 357’s and let the agents use .38’s if they do better with them on the range.
357 @ 165 gr moving 1350 fps (+P load) = 211,950
38 special @ 158 gr moving 910 fps (+P load) = 143,780
The old-school 38-special ankle revolver (with a hot load) does about as much as the modern plastic-fantastic 9mm’s.
All that matters is YOU HAVE TO HIT THE GUY!!!!
If you hit the guy more often with a weaker load, than that is what you use. Ranking of priorities really shouldn’t be this hard of an exercise?
Divemedic · January 16, 2026 at 11:23 am
I agree with the sentiment, but a more accurate formula is
Danny · January 16, 2026 at 6:02 pm
When it comes to firearms, everyone has an opinion. I get it – 9mm is very popular and most all of us have at least one of them. I have two. But most often I carry a .38 special.
And if I feel the need, I carry .357 magnum (the perfect cartridge) or .45 acp. Still jonesing for the Kimber Ultra Carry – that’s a sexy handgun.
Divemedic · January 16, 2026 at 8:57 pm
I had one, and a few other 1911s. I got rid of them because they were unreliable jamomatics. The 1911 is a sexy looking gun. One of the prettiest autos out there. They also suck as defensive handguns unless you bust out several thousand dollars for gunsmithing.
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