The new hotness among governments in light of the Bruen decision is expanding places that are off limits to carrying concealed weapons. Make the entire city a special carve out of areas that are sensitive, and therefore off limits to carrying concealed weapons, and you can back door your way into a general gun ban.
It isn’t a new concept. Disney tried it by claiming that their license to import fireworks made the entire Orlando theme park complex off limits, and Universal Studios claimed that the presence of the “Digital Audio Visual Effects (DAVE)” college on the grounds of their studios made the entire theme park that was on the same property off limits to carry.
For the last several years, the one that appears to be spreading in Florida is the “Police Substation.” It works like this: a business agrees to let police sit inside of their establishment to do paperwork and take a break, and in exchange they get to put stickers on the entrance claiming that “This is a police substation for XXX police department” and viola- the business is now a police station and is thus off limits for legal concealed carry. The Lauderhill Mall is doing it– so is the Central Baptist Church in Sanford. The Westgate mobile home park in Largo has allowed police to use one of the vacant trailers on the property as a substation. Many hospitals are doing this as well. I have seen at least three of them in the past six months that have posted signs just like this.
I can’t find an answer in the statutes or in any Florida case law on this. Is a business location off limits to carry if they allow police officers to occasionally use a portion of the property as a resting or public relations base, if the property is primarily used as a business or other location, and the police are usually not there? I am writing emails to several prominent attorneys who do firearms rights advocacy to get an answer on this one. Anyone else here have any authoritative information in this?
14 Comments
Noway2 · July 9, 2023 at 7:52 am
No authoritative information, but an observation from previous experiences (reading, not my own). Absent any legislation that provides guidance, which likely doesn’t exist, this is going to be one of those cases where someone is going to have to be harmed before even the judicial will weigh in on whether it’s “legal” or not. Who wants to be the test case? And that is exactly what the tyrants are counting on.
Bobsuruncle · July 9, 2023 at 8:07 am
So sorry, i didnt have my glasses on and cant read without them. Disney uses facial recognition and they have access to numerous databases, they id CCW holders and confront them on their property with private security, with county LEO in tow or on the spot and will ask if they suspect you are carrying concealed, i would suspect their cameras run gait analysis programs to assist in that effort. I stopped going there a long time ago. If i cant i dont go, or if its arbitrary and its public, make your own decisions, im not telling anyone to break the law, thats your choice.
Divemedic · July 9, 2023 at 8:24 am
1 I don’t know who told you that Disney has access to lists of CCW holders, but this would be illegal under Florida Statute 790.0601.
2 It isn’t illegal to carry at Disney.
3 I have done so on many occasions and even posted about it, even with their metal detectors in place. Their security sucks.
4 Disney was incorrect- they are not legally off limits to carry or possession of firearms. They tried to twist the law to their advantage, but were not able to do so. They still have the private property right to try and catch you and make you return your gun to your car, but that is not quite the same thing.
5 The question here is that a “does a business that allows cops to hang out there become a police station, and thus off limits to CCW, if they put up a sign that says ‘we are a police substation’ even if police are usually not present?”
The law says that the property owner isn’t responsible for what criminals do. Therefore, they can prohibit weapons without providing any real security, and if you are murdered, raped, or robbed as a result of being made defenseless, that isn’t the business’ problem. I have an issue with that, and I will continue to carry regardless of what property owners think, as long as it is legal to do so. If they don’t like it, too bad.
EN2 SS · July 9, 2023 at 11:29 am
1 I don’t know who told you that Disney has access to lists of CCW holders, but this would be illegal
I’m confused, but since when has being legal stopped any fascist from having/doing anything they want? Top reference, the doj itself, not to mention the Obamao/Bidet Crime Family.
Divemedic · July 9, 2023 at 11:37 am
Except in Florida, you can sue the shit out of both Disney and the official who illegally released your information. Not in their official capacity, but personally.
Bobsuruncle · July 11, 2023 at 10:51 am
First off, im fat fingering on a phone, so im not concerned about my caps, perfect punctuation and grammar.
1. I didnt state disney had access to CCW info, I said ID. How can they determine that, how is it likely done, i can only speculate how, likely through their LEO partnerships, but I know its being done. You dont think disney keeps data based info on persons they interact with? The government, as well as private entities can buy access to many databases, lexus/nexus, accurint, reuters to name a few. I know for a fact many lists, say for those in threat management with force protection concerns are LEOSA (those are federal CCWs), ffl lists, just to name a few. Statutes you say, there are so many legal work arounds in the threat management business, force pro areas for just about anything, these entities share info legally and lawfully, until someone finds out and contests it in court. “Specific Fusion Center” type entities (im purposely being obtuse here) have accesses from high side, operational, and everything in between, and a lot of open source open, from social media to to your mil records, your financials, etc…just about any database with your info on it, only requires the right contact and a phone call. Disney with LEO partnerships would easily be able to access many things. Im being obtuse and vague on purpose.
2. It isnt illegal to carry at disney. Nope but they are prohibited, and once it is determined you are, you leave or get trespassed and likely arrested if you dont comply. Ive seen it first hand. https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/park-rules/
3. Disney security sucks. Because you say you bypassed there metal detectors. there are articles out there on what they publicly discuss, i wont bore anyone. Im not putting my resume out here, but i have a pretty good idea what im talking about. Im lumping in disney park and other disney properties here. i dont have time to run down an assessment of all their properties.
4. How did disney twist the law? Its private property, therefore they have the right to prohibit ccw. Period. Anyone has the right to sue them for doing so, have at it. Disney has been making its own rules as a district since what 1968? How is using the police substation cutout any different?
5. Hang a police substation sign, no ccw, do they have the right? Right has nothing to do with it. They can, and some will use the police substation cutout, until its challenged, likely sued. The same way local, state and federal governments violate US Code all day everyday. I say this having challenged state, county and fed gov on violating US Code, yet it still continues, Im fighting an issue right now with my county, violating US Code. Same as USPS ICOP program collected on US citizens under force protection. Same as Protection Battalion Services (PSB), collects on US citizens for the sake of protecting senior leaders. Same as CISA violates your rights, same as FDLE was running IMSI catchers (stingrays) IMO illegally, same as DHS under numerous programs IMO violates your rights with programs like their social media scrubbing and SARs.
Winston · July 9, 2023 at 9:34 am
Regarding the Segway donut molester security guard, I bet he doesn’t mind the poleece being armed at the hospital.
Some are a little more equal than others.
Jonathan · July 9, 2023 at 9:52 am
A hospital near me has No Guns signs on some of their doors and private security that open carries… State law allows property owners here to post “no guns without permission of owner” but I haven’t seen anyone do it in years.
They don’t have the signs on the doors most convenient for me, and they clearly aren’t following their own signs, so I don’t either…
Beans · July 9, 2023 at 11:38 am
The police substation in Florida is old news. There have been substations in most of the malls in Florida for at least 20 years. And many cities where vibrant and diverse populations exist have had them, again, for years. St. Petersburg has had multiples. So has Orlando and Miami. It’s also a ‘safe’ place for cops to have bathroom runs and hold hoodlums for misdemeanor charges while writing up the paperwork, depending on the substation.
But, yeah, using it as a carve-out for gun control is sucky. Like setting up school bus stops near reported child predators to force them to move. Utter dick mode on the governments’ part.
Divemedic · July 9, 2023 at 11:54 am
There are still malls in Florida? I thought most of them were abandoned buildings filled with empty stores and homeless drug users.
Rick · July 9, 2023 at 2:24 pm
A police substation located within a gathering place, i.e, church, mall, is to the police as is a USN aircraft carrier to the territory of the United States.
Perhaps, then, it would then seem reasonable to some persons that the presence of a single officer is like to a substation.
Drip, drip, drip … that is the sound of encroachment of anti-liberty forces.
However, because this is a civilian matter in that police derive their authority by municipalities, 1) they cannot for long stretch the intent of the city council; 2) they cannot force their new interpretation of their powers; 3) they act to preempt the jurisdiction of the state in which they reside (if that state has preemption laws).
As a citizen not granted police powers, I would conduct myself with impunity to their made-up interpretations.
Boneman · July 9, 2023 at 6:53 pm
Interesting… I have to wonder about the sort of conflicting situation at The Walmarts here in Florida where they have “Special” parking places for Law Enforcement to park any time they want, but if you’ve ever been through the Pharmacy drive in there’s a polite little sign asking you to please refrain from “Open Carrying” a firearm.
Gotta wonder how they would handle someone open-carrying while fishing in any of the retention ponds “out back”. It is legal to do so, but I suppose on private property, the owner would have a say about it. Actually, I don’t think they allow fishing in any of them. Perhaps that’s why.
Bad Dancer · July 10, 2023 at 7:14 am
No sources of authority but a common tactic. In Alabama it was no guns in courthouses as a security measure after 9/11??? So county buildings would put up a sign on a broom closet saying how it was a court room between the hours of X and Y and thus BOOM the whole building was declared off limits.
Same thing in my current state up in the Godless North, they tried like the devil to get concealed carry banned in state fairgrounds by saying because a county office was present in a building the whole grounds were illegal for carry. After getting spanked repeatedly and losing attendance and donations they relented by saying carry was fine but you could not enter any buildings. No seeing attractions, no entering barns, and just to be jerks no entering any bathroom facilities even freestanding ones up to and including those mobile port-a-johns. The mockery that THOSE were the vaunted county offices nearly made whichever weenie tried to justify that rule remove all of them from the fairgrounds before they were probably led aside and given a pillow to cry into. Depending on which state trooper is working the gate and how much of a goose stepper they are they’ll mark people who declare at the security station and metal detector “I am legally conceal carrying” and follow them around to see if they enter any buildings. It may or may not be fun to go with reversible clothing and stuff jacket to play Jason Bourne with them.
Things are further complicated and frustrated if you dig in far enough and find out it isn’t the government at all it is the businesses insurance rider who is comitting financial activism by saying if the place doesn’t explicitly ban carry they’ll raise their rates and be held liable for any incidents.
Divemedic · July 10, 2023 at 7:20 am
Putting up a sign that says “No guns” to comply with insurance is one thing. Lying and trying to game the law by claiming that your Smoothie shop is a police station is quite another.
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