I apparently touched a nerve. Joe takes issue with me when I have a problem with plumbers charging $750 an hour for a simple job that a DIY homeowner can do for a fraction of the cost, including buying tools to do the job. Thinking that he is clever, he tries to turn it around on me by saying that

That remindeds me of the look on the ER Doctor’s face when I told my son I use Super Glue instead of paying $1500 dollars for a 3rd rate butterfly stitch and a bandaid.

I’ve got news for you- I agree with you. People come to the ED for some of the dumbest reasons, and if you went to the ED for a butterfly strip and a bandaid, you are part of that group. I see people every day who come in for flu symptoms and other minor maladies instead of buying over the counter medications. When I was a street medic, I often was called to the dumbest things you’ve ever heard of. Women with menstrual cramps, a woman who was hot and didn’t know how to change her thermostat, a woman with a flat tire.

Each of them could have benefitted from knowing how to do it themselves. The same as the plumbing job. Know that the plumbing company that is charging me $750 isn’t paying their employees anything close to that amount. It isn’t the professional making a living from his skills that is charging that kind of money. That guy is likely making less than $30 an hour.

When I was working as an electrician in the mid 90s, the company that I worked for was charging $100 an hour with a 4 hour minimum for emergency service while paying me $11 an hour. So the company got $400 and paid me $44. My service vehicle was a beat up old postal jeep for a year, and the second year I got upgraded to a used UPS delivery truck. I get that there is other overhead, but not that much. At $750 an hour, you are looking at charging 25 times the rate that they are paying that plumber.

As a business owner both past and present, I understand the costs associated with running a business are higher than than the costs paid to the person doing the job, but charging 20 or 30 times more than what you are paying your plumbers goes beyond that and causes people to want to do the job themselves.

Remember that a business isn’t just just competing against other businesses, but also against the DIY community. If McDonald’s charges $100 for a burger, people will go to Burger King or to another competitor. If they all charge that much, people will just stay home and cook burgers for themselves.

The same is true of any business. Installing that sink was a 15 minute job that cost me $50 in parts, yet the plumber wanted $600 for it. I found a plumber working on a nearby construction site and offered him $100 to do it. He agreed, but then didn’t show, so I did it myself.

I once had a drainage problem in my old house and called a plumber. Actually, a few plumbers over a six year period. No one could fix the problem. One plumber ran a camera on a snake down my drains and didn’t find the problem, then told me there was nothing wrong and billed me $500. The sinks clogged again three days later. After six years, I finally found the problem- I changed every AAV valve in the house (it cost me $100) and never had the problem again.

I do lots of stuff for myself- I repair brakes on my car, do my own oil changes, do many of my own home repairs, and cook my own food. Are there times I hire a pro, recognizing that the job is beyond my capabilities? You bet your ass, but I am NOT paying someone $600 to hook up a sink or $900 to hook up a water conditioner. A job I learned to do myself by watching a YouTube video. That’s part of what being a functional human that doesn’t need to call people charging inflated prices for something simple means.

I will also say to Joe Blow that his comment violated the rule that this blog has about personal attacks. I allowed it because he is a long time commenter, but that is the only mulligan you get:

 I hope your hack-job on the water pipe bursts and floods your brand new basement and your homeowners denies your claim because you were unlicensed.

The joke is on you, asshole. Houses in Florida don’t have basements, and the entire plumbing job is in the garage or just outside of it, which is below the grade of the rest of the house. That’s what “shit goes downhill” part of the rules of plumbing covers. See how easy it is?

Categories: Blog News


Don W Curton · January 24, 2024 at 8:35 am

Growing up, my Dad was a Jack-of-all-trades type of guy and I learned from him. I cannot remember him EVER calling any type of technician to the house except A/C repair. We did all plumbing, electrical, appliance, carpentry and car repairs ourselves. It’s a great thing to have those skills, even if I occasionally hire someone these days. If I do hire someone, 90% of the time I end up going behind them and fixing their mistakes, too. So that “licensing” thing is mostly BS too.

And for plumbing, I actually know a guy whose day job is exactly what you describe, working for ~$30/hr while the company charges $750/hr. He gets off work around 4 pm, then from 4 pm to 9 pm does off-the-books plumbing for $75/hr on a handshake basis. He’s never done me wrong, we just gotta wait until the evening for him to get there. In Bidenomics, expect to see more and more of this.

Grumpy51 · January 24, 2024 at 8:49 am

I also watch when the pros come in. I had a sink drain problem in the master bathroom that I couldn’t figure out, including running a video and snake. Called the plumber and watched him. Come to find out – the house AC drain pipe dumped into my wife’s sink line. It builds up the slime and has to be flushed periodically. Plumber told me to run Clorox (1 cup) and 1 gallon of hot water following (start at the drain pipe on the Air handler unit) about every 6 months. He did have to cut the vent pipe to get the stuff flowing.

During the holidays, had both sinks clog. Went to run the Clorox but no luck. So ran a snake down the vent pipe (where he’d cut and spliced) and felt the clog…. kept bouncing the snake until I felt it go through. Checked the sinks, all clear.

Lesson – watch and ASK QUESTIONS when you’re paying someone. That last drain problem cost me $32 for a longer bigger snake (which I now have for next time).

And yes, nationwide, only 5% of ALL ED “visits” (MAN I HATE THAT TERM, you ain’t visiting, you’re being professionally evaluated) are classified as emergent (true emergency). Most hospital ED evaluations (~80%) are classified as non-emergent (think “clinic”). Which we (society) could stop by just charging $20 up front (after MSE -medical screening exam, to ensure no emergency exists, don’t want to violate EMTALA).

Himself · January 24, 2024 at 8:53 am

At one point I needed a chain on my Yamaha. The dealer wanted $600. The chain rivet tool cost $80. I installed a far better chain for 1/2 the money.

There are things won’t tackle – roofing, plumbing drains (where you have to dig). Basically things that I need done that I want someone to blame when they are screwed up.

Noway2 · January 24, 2024 at 10:05 am

“$600 to hook up a sink or $900 to hook up a water conditioner” is apparently plumber speak for I don’t want the job.

oldvet50 · January 24, 2024 at 10:33 am

Well, to be fair, superglue was invented during the VietNam conflict to quickly suture wounds in the field.

Max Wiley · January 24, 2024 at 10:34 am

I totally agree with you about the DIY aspect, as I said yesterday in a comment I end up doing most things myself because I have the capability, the prices are so high, and hired work quality can be spotty.
What I did not reveal then is that I am a licensed electrician with nearly 25 years in the trade, 30 years in construction work in general. You are off a little bit in your estimations of the costs to contractors for calls like these, and I can explain it because I have been an estimator and project manager and am now a contractor, it is my job to both price and cost the work and I see the numbers.
A quick look on Indeed shows that licensed plumbers in Florida make $30-$36 an hour, roughly in line with my state (although living expenses and overall costs are higher in Florida). There are matching taxes, health insurance, and other expenses on top of the flat hourly wage that need to be paid that land actual hourly labor costs for a journeyman somewhere around $55 an hour. You better add at least $25/hour to that to pay for the service vehicle and fuel, and the apprentice with the journeyman costs around $30/hr. This just covers the crew actually doing the work, before overhead like estimating and project management, admin, and shop. The $130-$140 (or more) an hour to get a truck on site only represents 10% margin for the contractor.
I mentioned before that not many Gen X entered the trades and there is a massive shortage of skilled tradesmen right now. My state has fewer licensed journeymen across all trades than it did 50 years ago, now serving double the population. Journeymen positions are very difficult to fill, and for service work where you want a quality candidate that is reliable with a clean background it is even more difficult. I’m not even adding in hustle and productivity; that is nice to find and these guys are gems that you take very good care of but they are maybe 1 in 10. Reliable, with hustle and troubleshooting skills marks an employee out for future management. Sadly, for the rest productivity comes from structuring your system, for example forcing them to keep the inventory of specified items on the service vehicle to prevent unnecessary trips to the supply house.
This is why, in a state with some of the lowest cost of living in the nation, a skilled journeyman that is a real craftsman and is willing to work 50 hours a week can easily break low six figures, more than most with STEM degrees and a lot of medical professions and double the average income. Be willing to travel and work a little more overtime and that can turn into $250/k a year. It’s a crazy world.
Your guy that is “on call” for emergency calls after hours gets double pay and his time starts from the time he walks out his door until he returns. Some companies also have to pay an “on call” bonus. Emergency call rates are double the normal rate and yes, four hour minimum. Emergency calls are very expensive, should be avoided unless it really is a legit emergency, and the prices for that work shouldn’t be used for comparison purposes. Emergency calls also do not make up more than a small single digit percentage of any companies’ gross billing.
Your plumber looked at the water softener connection and knew that it was highly likely to end up being a “half day” plus materials (which sounds like weren’t small). When you also added in the sink, he knows that this now moved your job to a “full day” regardless of the fact it really isn’t an additional half of a day worth of work, but it is unlikely that truck does any other calls that day and very likely that it magically results in 8 hours billed, no matter what.
Contractors (and estimators) are also very aware that things often turn into a shitshow on jobs that are hard priced and nobody wants to go into the hole. You can bet that about 20% was added on top of the actual estimate to cover that. Sometimes you STILL go into the red.
The bigger businesses will do a lot of advertising, usually radio, billboard, and Google. These shops also generally don’t pay quite as well, usually a couple of dollars less than “full market” price for a journeyman, and retain exactly the workers that match that culture. They succeed with very structured systems that are management and admin heavy. The contractor makes a smaller profit % but generates bigger numbers. (You want good quality work at a decent price, find the small to medium size company that has been in business for 25+ years and doesn’t advertise much, if at all. They have it down. Don’t ask them for an estimate, give them a Not To Exceed amount and if it turns into a hairball they will call you to authorize more.)
These are just the realities of contracting businesses for skilled trades. One reality is that a certain percentage of your customers will not pay you, and others will want to renegotiate the price after the work is complete. (I have learned not to do anything more than a one hour troubleshooting service call for Middle Easterners and South Asians without payment up front.) Another reality is that if you do everything right top to bottom, most small to medium size contractors that do service work and also do some new build will see net of around 8% at the end of the year, and those are the GOOD ones. They aren’t ripping people off (for the most part, individual exceptions apply) that’s just the structural price of the system.

    Big Ruckus D · January 24, 2024 at 3:14 pm

    ^ this gets to the specifics of what I was trying to convey in my commenting on yesterday’s post. DIY will always be cheaper (if you know what you’re doing and don’t screw it up) but it is unrealistic to expect a legit contractor with all the overhead involved to do the work DM did himself at an hourly rate of less than $130/hr anymore in a typical market, that’s just the harsh reality of where we’re at now.

    And that assumes a market that doesn’t have outrageous cost of living and even more government BS than usual imposed on the business, forcing it to charge even higher rates.

    All that said, flat rate pricing ends up being outrageous, and I really don’t know how these outfits retain any customers after fucking them – sans lube – with the sort of rates some of them are charging. I couldn’t quote those numbers to an customer’s face and not be ashamed. Yet, these outfits are around and apparently doing enough business to keep at it.

    As I said yesterday, I did a faucet repair on T&M for under $400 (including time to research and order the parts), for which a flat rate shop wanted $1200 just in labor to replace outright. There is no possible way you can justify that. I’d not work for an outfit that billed that way since I’m still only seeing ~$35/hr as a journeyman, so I know they are screwing the customer and, my paycheck sees no benefit from it. Not that I’m advocating screwing the customer, just pointing out that the delta between the hourly pay rate to the guy actually doing the work, and what the company is pocketing, is far too great for me to willingly accept. Besides, it’d leave me feeling dirty to operate like that, knowing the customer is getting screwed, whether or not they realize it.

      Divemedic · January 24, 2024 at 3:24 pm

      The plumber who came out to do the estimate had a tablet. He clicked on menu buttons that read “install customer supplied water softener” and “install customer supplied sink” and those were the prices that the system gave me. The quote was:

      Install customer’s whole house filter- includes installing customer provided whole home water filter. All parts will be the responsibility of the customer. NO WARRANTY. All tasks will be performed by a licensed, trained, and insured professional. $871.

      Level 1 Repipe and repair- includes plumbing services. 1 YEAR PART AND LABOR WARRANTY. All tasks will be performed by a licensed, trained, and insured professional. $575

      The funny part is that, according to the website, the plumber they sent out isn’t licensed. That didn’t stop him from charging me $39 for the estimate.

        Big Ruckus D · January 24, 2024 at 3:51 pm

        And there it is. This had to be a flat rate outfit. That being the case, I’m not surprised they were high on their quote. Although as Max Wiley pointed out upthread, most outfits, even those billing T&M, don’t want to eat a couple of otherwise billable hours by having a tech on a job just long enough that he won’t be able to get another call done, on regular time anyway. So the tendency will be to find a way to make it a full day, if the time involved is more than half a day.

        I don’t do that, because many of my service calls are short 1-2 hour repairs, and I frequently do 3-4 a day, often being “on the clock” more than 8 hours by the time I’m done, but not being able to bill more than 8 that are actual productive time on a job site. So, my hourly rate has to include some padding for travel between calls, if only to cover the expense of running the truck itself.

        I effectively get paid a little less than a guy who spends all day on a single job under this arrangement, but that’s just how it is. I can’t directly bill a customer for travel time as a line item on the invoice (without them sqwaking about it) so it becomes another overhead cost wrapped into the base hourly rate, along with fuel, insurance and everything else that comes out of my pocket before I make dollar one.

        Obviously, I’m not in business to work for DIY’ers, as they don’t generally need me, and that’s fine. I’m doing work for the masses who don’t know how to do what I do, are willing to pay for it to be done right, and recognize the value of what they are getting for the money paid. I virtually never have a customer question the invoice as presented, and I collect on nearly every call I do, save some commercial accounts who get billed. The lack of complaints about what I charge tells me I’m still in the sweet spot.

    Aesop · January 24, 2024 at 6:01 pm

    Excellent breakdown of how it is, Max.
    Full marks!

D · January 24, 2024 at 1:51 pm

I agree.
When I was young and very poor, I had a tooth ache. It was on a Wednesday afternoon just before the Thursday Thanksgiving…and we all know dentists take Thanksgiving off, the Friday off, and the weekend off…

…and the soonest anyone could see me was about a week out…and they wanted something like $600 to drill/patch the cavity…but if it was too deep it would be a root canal for $1,200…or they could yank it for ~$200.

I said “screw that”, went to Walmart, bought every bottle of “extra strength benzocaine for tooth aches”, went home, poured them all into a cup, took a big mouthful, swished it around for a few minutes until my entire face was numb, drooled it out into the sink, rinsed my mouth out, got a large rubber band, put it over my tooth, grabbed it with some angled pliers I had laying around, and quickly torqued it. I felt the crunch/snap…and it hut a bit…but it wasn’t too bad. Then I pulled up and extracted the tooth. I rinsed real quick with some hydrogen peroxide, put a cotton ball in the socket until it stopped bleeding and continued on with life.

Total cost was around $35 in supplies.

Additionally, four out of my five children were born at home. My first kid was in a hospital. They misplaced the epidural and caused all sorts of trouble with the delivery that ended up costing ~$33,000 (insurance paid all but a few hundred dollars of it). The remaining kids were delivered at home on our bed. For the first one, we purchased about $250 worth of supplied (nose bulb suckers, chucks pads, cord clamps, etc…). For the remainder we just used all the left-over supplies we had from the first one.

Total cost for the hospital kid: $33,000 (out of pocket ~$500).
Total cost for the four home-birth kids: $250 out of pocket.

Sure, there are definitely times you *need* a professional to deal with things–it may be due to the complexity of the problem, the skills required, or the lack of time to deal with it yourself…but most things can be solved on your own with knowledge, time, and less money.

Johnny · January 24, 2024 at 2:11 pm

I would say that your method of DIY is absolutely correct. A friend of a friend called me and stated that the plumbing company they have on maintenance contract wanted $1800 for labor to change out their water heater, and asked if I was interested. At first, sight unseen, I couldn’t give them a fair estimate and asked if I could stop by and see what the problem was. They sent me pictures of a leak, but not very good pictures. All I could see was some water droplets on the side of the water heater, which was only 3 yrs old and under warranty by said maintenance company. Soo, I went over, met a really nice, gullible family who had no idea about plumbing, electrical etc etc. They worked in the IT world. Showed them that the expansion tank was leaking, not the water heater, and the maintenance company was about to take them for a ride. The expansion tank and a hose bib pressure gauge cost less than $50 and took 10 mins to swap out. Enjoyed a really nice lunch and conversation, and the homeowners paid me for a full tank of gas. Now, I have customers for life, until they decide to DIY.

    Big Ruckus D · January 24, 2024 at 4:26 pm

    So a company they paid a service contract to (which is generally money paid for nothing anyway, at least for residential customers) was going to nick them for $1800 to replace a 3 year old heater likely still under factory warranty (which is 6 years on most tank type heaters) all sight unseen with no assessment of what was actually wrong? That’s not a plumber, that’s a fucking crook. Even if the heater needed replacement (which they apparently failed to verify) it’s replacement should’ve been free from the manufacturer.

    That leaves the labor to drain, disconnect and install the replacement heater, which isn’t nearly $1800 worth of work. And this is precisely why the trades are viewed as shit bums by so many people. I assure you it pisses off those of us doing honest work.

Walt Westbrook · January 24, 2024 at 3:09 pm

In contrast to the lie of Credentialism, Terry Love (professional plumber) hosts a hugely valuable Forum where pros and homeowners ask questions and get answers. IOW, Terry Love GIVES knowledge away for free.
Clearly, his brand is worth a great deal because of this attitude.

Asking “experts” has twilighted and is in decline. Trust, once lost, even for a plumber, is close to impossible to repair.

jimmyPx · January 24, 2024 at 3:52 pm

What DM is really getting at is the total ripoff nature of A LOT of contractors these days.

For example I live in Florida and last Fall one of the hurricanes damaged part of my wood fence.
Unfortunately I have some health issues now where I physically can’t fix it myself.
Thus I have called fence companies as well as handymen to get it fixed.
Almost everyone has said that it is about $500 -$600 in materials. Now I’d be fine adding double that for labor, so $1500 – $2000 would be fair I think. My quotes ? $3000 – $7000 !!
Realize this is just to replace some damaged fence panels in an existing fence, it’s less than a day’s labor.
The problem is like with the $7000 quote. The Big Boss rolls in driving a brand new Escalade and his hands are baby soft ie he hasn’t touched a fence in years. He measured for 10 minutes and gave me that insane quote. You know he’ll have Jose and Javier the illegals do the work, pay them peanuts under the table and pocket all of the money for himself.

This is the kind of crap that ticks people off and rightfully so.

Scot Irish · January 24, 2024 at 4:25 pm

I don’t understand why he wishes bad stuff on you.

    Big Ruckus D · January 24, 2024 at 10:49 pm

    Yeah, that’s kind of where he lost me, too. That’s the sort of petty, vindictive shit the hardcore vaxxtards pulled during the height of their 2 year plus psychological breakdown, wishing pain, suffering, imprisonment and death on those of us who refused to comply with their panic driven, overtly emotion driven demands. It’s not a good look. Basically it amounts to acute “stephen colbert personality disorder”.

    I mean, there are some things for which it is entirely appropriate to wish suffering death on one’s enemy, like openly allowing invasion of a country they are legally mandated to protect the borders of, and daring us to try and do something about it.

    But a guy who does his own plumbing project to save some scratch in a proper fucked economy isn’t really due to be the target of that kind of ire, as I see it. Maybe I missed something.

Phoenix Rise · January 24, 2024 at 4:28 pm

Read one about a wymyns who called 911 because the frankenfries weren’t warm enough at the drive thru.
Devolution is real and they went too far with the dumbing down.
I’m not a genius man but I always thought emergency room meant life threatening not I stubbed my toe or have the sniffles.
Comrade plumber needs some competitors who don’t charge $750 an hour or have some CPUSA (D) union siphoning off funds.
O/T-How about Abbott in a how many divisions does SCROTUS have as Stalin said about the pope back in halcyon times.
Don’t feel bad about a third rate fake and GAE rainbow Dante’s Inferno burning to the ground, this is the only way.

Aesop · January 24, 2024 at 5:51 pm

I see those home Superglue jobs somewhat regularly.
We generally diagnose them as “low grey matter titer”.

The lucky ones just have a septic wound, because they forgot about thorough wound cleansing before closure, or not closing at all wounds over 12 hours old, since they never covered that part in Not A Doctor medical school.
So they get a $1500 ER visit anyways, and a $200 antibiotic prescription or two, and an I&D (incision and drainage) which is numb at first, and only throbs like a m*****f***** for the next few days, until you fill your $100 pain med Rx. Which might get you constipated, and another $1500 ER visit. And even if it doesn’t do that, probably put you off work for a few days, at no pay, because it isn’t long enough for disability. Maybe you’ve got some paid sick time, maybe you don’t We don’t care, but you will.

Bad ones get a multi-day admission for sepsis that’s gotten into bones, which is a cast-iron bitch to fix, and will keep you in the hospital for a week or two, at $5K-$10K/day, and round-the-clock antibiotic IV therapy. And your co-pay is frequently 10-20% of that, even with insurance. Lucky people get to keep all their bones. Unlucky ones start losing body parts when it turns into gangrene. Surgery? $10-$50K and up. Loss of digits. Loss of function, forever. Hopefully we get it all the first time. And there’s usually no complications, like blood clots, a UTI, pneumonia, etc. Which is good, because the ICU starts at $15K-$20K/day. Plus lab work. Plus imaging work. Plus the doctor’s bills. All billed separately.

The worse ones have a severed (or patially severed) nerve, or even tendon, because in not A Doctor Medical School, they didn’t get taught to examine underlying structures, and don’t do it, because they can’t numb the wound up to explore it without excruciating pain. And the partial tendon cut eventually gives way over time, and suddenly you can’t bend or extend one of your digits. Which costs you for a $40K three-day admission and ortho surgery, instead of an exorbitant $1500 for “a 3rd rate butterfly stitch and a band-aid.” (Oh, and a sterile suture pack, local anesthetic, 16,000 hours of medical training and expertise before starting work, sterile technique, eyes that can see places you can barely stand to look, two hands that can do what one of yours can’t, and a 0.0001% failure or re-infection rate. What thieving bastards!) Bummer.

And of course, you can’t get tetanus boosters over the counter.
Folks should read up on death by tetanus from before there was a shot for that:

But hey, it’s only 10-20% fatal, so roll those dice.

And rock on with that DIY medical care for lacs that should have been sutured.
I’ll see you at the ER.

The people that are paying the doctor for what they do are usually intubated, and go straight to trauma surgery, and sometimes they even live to talk about it afterwards.

Everyone else pays the doctor for what they know, of which 99.9999% of folks have no freaking wild idea to even think of.

I could be wrong; I’ve only seen this 10,000 times in the last 30+ years.
Maybe some people out there are the magic exceptions that prove the rule.

There are plenty of medical things where you can – and even should – DIY.
I even encourage that approach, where sensible.
But only if you know the ones that aren’t.

I can count the laymen I’ve met with that knowledge on my thumbs, so far.
Most folks are too lazy to do even the basic homework.

Plumbing, unlike emergency medicine, as evidenced by the fact that you don’t need 8 years of specialty training to do the former, isn’t that complex.
Only the bills for service are comparable.

    Scott Norris · January 25, 2024 at 5:49 pm

    These the same Dr’s still recommending the jab ?

      Wild, wild west · January 26, 2024 at 12:31 am

      We have reached that point in Modern America where most of us live in urban areas where tradespeople can get away with that sort of shoddy and/or overpriced work because word or mouth doesn’t carry very far. Gone are the days where the small-town tradesman couldn’t get away with that because the word would circulate. Like Thomas Jefferson talking about when we get piled up atop each other in cities like in Europe, we will become as corrupt as Europe, that’s where we are today.

      On the other hand, having more than just a little experience with being on the contractor side of the equation, before you open up that wall or dig a hole you have no idea what’s lurking there, hidden away and lusting to snatch away your profit margin. New construction can be accurately bid but repair and rework oftentimes cannot. You want a firm price for repair and rework, bring your checkbook. It’s likely to cost you more because the contractor is gonna want to get covered. In fact, he has to get covered. He’s not running a charity and when he loses money on your job, essentially what happened was he ended up paying you to do the work…..that’s not sustainable activity.

      Always be negotiating about the big stuff but let the little stuff slide, within reason. Negotiate early, often and fairly and if you have a bad feeling about a tradesman, trust your feelz and find somebody else. Every single time I got screwed by a sub-contractor, there were alarms I didn’t listen to. Your mileage may vary. But I doubt it.

      Aesop · January 26, 2024 at 3:45 am

      I haven’t heard anyone not on Uncle’s payroll recommend the jab for years now. That ship sailed long ago.

      If you can’t tell the difference between the docs down the street, and the FedGov jackholes running the CDC, no one can help you.

      Suture self. Literally. Or hire a witch doctor. That might work.

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