Many times we hear about public employees like teachers and cops being suspended with pay. Many people think that this is some sort of slap on the wrist that is simply a paid vacation, and the public employee will face no further discipline. That is simply not the case.
That paid suspension is actually a part of the employee’s constitutional rights. The case was Cleveland Board of Education v. Loudermill, a 1985 case that was decided by the US Supreme Court. The underlying question for the case was:
“Can the government remove a civil servant’s property rights to employment before providing an opportunity for that employee to respond to the charges offered for his termination?”
The court said that the Constitution prevents the government from depriving anyone of their property without also providing that employee a chance to defend themselves. Calling witnesses, having counsel, a hearing, and all of the other due process rights that any other person would have before the government can take something from them.
So back to our cops and teachers. A cop or teacher is being considered for termination or unpaid suspension. In order to do that, the administrative authority who will take that action must hold a hearing where the employer (the government) will present its reasons for terminating or suspending the employee. The employee then has an opportunity to bring their own witnesses, present their case, and respond to the allegations. Only then can the employee be terminated or suspended.
Until that hearing has been held, an employee cannot be deprived of anything. That includes their job and their pay. So this leaves the employing agency in a quandary: Do you leave the disgraced employee in his or her job? Many employers choose not to, and will suspend the employee with pay, pending further proceedings.
After the punishment has been imposed, the employee has the right to appeal that decision in front of a court. If the appeal is successful, then the employee will likely be reinstated with back pay. This appeals process can sometimes take years.
27 Comments
EN2 SS · July 23, 2022 at 11:08 am
So it’s legal to get a paid vacation after whatever caused the ruckus? Paid vacation until settled, if the perp (for lack of thinking of a better name) wins, get back pay, but has been paid during the process, so double pay? If perp loses the process, do they have to pay the paid vacation back? How exactly, is a government worker entitled to this process and private employees aren’t? Still bullshit, BIG part of the reason the government sucks from local to feds.
Divemedic · July 23, 2022 at 2:34 pm
Not double pay. Suspended with pay until hearing.
Let’s say they are suspended with pay for 2 weeks until the hearing, where they get fired, now out of work and not getting paid, but appeal to court because the firing is illegal.
Two years later, the court rules that the firing was illegal and orders that they be reinstated with back pay.
That actual scenario played out in Orange county Florida, when several dozen firefighters were fired for supporting a political candidate who lost. Her opponent took office and fired them. They went to court and were rehired after they won.
Why do government employees get this? Because the constitution is a restriction on what government does.
Steve · July 23, 2022 at 3:46 pm
The problem with that story is that the taxpayers were on the hook for the whole shebang, when justice demands it be taken from the coffers of the miscreant who did that, or out of his hide if he can’t quite cover it.
Just another case where government’s role is, at best, shifting the responsibility for harm away from the one who did the harm onto those who did not.
Want reparations or cancelling student debt or whatever else to become the law? Special pleadings are exactly the way that will happen.
Divemedic · July 23, 2022 at 5:09 pm
That pesky Constitution and all those people’s civil rights, getting in the way.
Steve · July 23, 2022 at 7:35 pm
Which amendment guarantees the right to be a fireman?
Divemedic · July 23, 2022 at 9:18 pm
The 5th Amendment:
No person shall … be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law
It's just Boris · July 23, 2022 at 11:35 am
Given this precedent, how can civil asset seizure and forfeiture still stand?
Anonymous · July 23, 2022 at 12:22 pm
They can stand because you are not one of the privileged.
It’s simple.
It’s not hypocrisy, it’s hierarchy.
USSA · July 23, 2022 at 3:36 pm
Unions=commie.
“Trade Unions are a School of Communism.”
Vladimir Lenin
Divemedic · July 23, 2022 at 5:10 pm
I dont think a labor union is any more evil than an investor’s union.
EN2 SS · July 23, 2022 at 10:53 pm
Really? What about what the teachers unions are doing with pedos?
Or all the evil labor unions have done with demoncrats?
Divemedic · July 24, 2022 at 8:46 am
And that is more evil than what companies like Disney are doing?
EN2 SS · July 24, 2022 at 11:52 am
Same thing, different demons. But we were posting about unions, weren’t we, not woke pedo corporations?
Divemedic · July 24, 2022 at 1:56 pm
A corporation is an investor’s union. A labor union is where workers pool labor for their advantage.
An investor’s union is where people pool money for their own advantage.
No difference.
Labor unions are (supposed to) keep corporations in check. Before they existed, we had robber barons.
Corporations are a larger evil than labor unions. They have done far more evil.
Steve S · July 23, 2022 at 6:18 pm
Civilian side, Will to Work. Can be fired, or quit, with our without cause, with or without notice. Yes, the employee can sue the employer over constitutional rights if that’s the case but usually not as the employer is careful not to leave that door open. And the large ones have deep legal pockets.
Steve S · July 23, 2022 at 6:19 pm
Note, Will to Work law not in all states IIRC.
EN2 SS · July 23, 2022 at 10:51 pm
I think you mean Right to Work, as in;
What does “right to work” really mean?
Key Takeaways
A right-to-work law gives workers the choice of whether or not to join a union.
States without right-to-work laws require employees to pay union dues and fees as a term for employment.
Proponents of right-to-work laws maintain that workers shouldn’t be obliged to join a union.
Don Curton · July 24, 2022 at 6:48 am
I think he means “employed at will”, such as the job I have. Had to sign off that I understood I was employed at will, and could be let go for any reason. Lay-offs, cut backs, plant closures, etc. Any minor violation of policy or procedure. There’s a few areas where they can’t because of risk I’ll sue (too old, wrong color, etc. where I can sue for discrimination), but otherwise fair game. Almost all non-hourly employees in the civilian world have to deal with this. As such, I don’t see where govt workers should get any more special protection when it’s my tax money paying their salary.
Divemedic · July 24, 2022 at 9:28 am
For the same reason why a business can restrict your speech and the government can’t.
Steve S · July 24, 2022 at 2:56 pm
Yes. Employment at Will is the term I meant.
Danny's not here · July 24, 2022 at 10:49 am
Right on.
anonymous coward · July 24, 2022 at 6:11 am
Does that ruling only apply to police and teachers – or all ‘government’ employees – or only those that are members of unions?
If only union memberships it sounds more like something negotiated in to their contract, not a legal precedent.
Divemedic · July 24, 2022 at 9:31 am
All government employees. The link for the case is in the post. You can read it yourself.
Steve · July 24, 2022 at 2:47 pm
“If only union memberships it sounds more like something negotiated in to their contract, not a legal precedent.”
It’s both. The reason it is upheld is there is a contract, either explicit or implied, and, of course, government will uphold any contract that allows them to continue to loot the populace. Same is true for other contracts as well, but in most cases, the guy who’s going to be stuck with the bill at least has a seat at the table somewhere. With government unions, everyone doing the negotiating is on the same team, and the only question is how much the taxpayer sap is going to get stuck for.
Vermillion · July 24, 2022 at 3:06 pm
Whew Wow OK. The 5Th amendment is alive and well. Is respected across the three branches of the g ovt. Boy for a minute there I thought the C onstitution was being trashed. Very comforting especially in lite of the current R ed fl ag laws. Uhhhh wait a minute………………….
Divemedic · July 24, 2022 at 3:24 pm
So we ignore the rest of it? I fight for the Constitution because it brought us the greatest nation that has brought more freedom and prosperity to people than any other nation the world has ever known. That means ALL of it.
So I will say to people here the same thing that I say to anti-gun people: If there are parts of it that you don’t like, there is a remedy for that. You get 2/3 Congress and 3/4 of the state legislatures to pass an amendment.
D · July 25, 2022 at 9:06 am
We need to try a new legal theory. Promote them.
Congratulations. For your dumb act, you are getting a promotion. Your new title is “the guy who digs ditches in the hot sun and then fills them back in again”.
Eliminate their old position in the manner corporations do it.
“I’m sorry, the position of ‘principal’ is being eliminated, however we now have a need for ‘tier 2 principal’. You can apply if you wish.”
Comments are closed.